but nearly two-thirds of all respondents considered cost as a barrier.
That’s really the only thing preventing mass adaptation, but as long as they’re so expensive (which they likely will be until we see a new battery technology) they simply aren’t a viable choice for many people.
Many of the people who are willing to spend a fortune on a vehicle already get an EV in the last few years (which they still are using rn), resulting in declining sales. It is time to cater to a broader market: more budget conscious people!
I just don’t trust the used market or resale value of these things. I bought a new ICE vehicle and don’t plan on considering EV or electric for at least another decade
Grey was meant as a variable there. People buying new cars are typically either heavy on disposable income and/or have placed high value on arbitrary criteria that most of us would not consider worth the very high price difference between New and used cars.
Ah, so any specific color. Yeah, that makes more sense.
Something I’ve heard from people in my life is that once you have a nicer car with all the creature comforts, it is really hard to go back. Strong air conditioning, extra comfy seats, quiet driving or the right kind of loud driving are all hard to give up.
That’s true but you can get all of that in a used car. There is a decent <20k mile used market and the same car new vs. One with 10miles on it in mint condition is thousands of dollars. The same people that will spend a day shuffling around money to try to game a 0.1% interest increase will throw piles of extra money for that new car though
Every comparison I’ve ever seen puts the new car as far, far more expensive than used.
Do two cars have to be different models and different years? Can it work out to compare the same trim level of the same car, and have the new one cost less overall than the used one?
I’ve never figured for any warranty in my car buying, so I’m playing a whole different ballgame here. I just go by advertised price, average gas milage, and how expensive is it when it breaks?
The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money.
Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles.
But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that’d still be keeping his feet dry in ten years’ time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.
This was the Captain Samuel Vimes ‘Boots’ theory of socioeconomic unfairness.
Yes, but you have to drive a lot to make up for the price. Dropping from 10€ per 100 km to 5€ per 100 km and slightly less maintenance cost (modern Diesel motors - and by modern I mean the last few decades, given that the motor has been treated well - are pretty carefree already) takes a long time to pay off. If you drive 10.000 km per year that’ll save you 500€ per year + minor maintenance savings, but you pay 10.000+ € more when buying the car. For electric motorcycles it’s even less notable since they need less fuel.
Lifespan also is difficult to evaluate. I’m currently using a 25 year old Skoda Octavia and it’s still causing no problems and I still could resell it for 3000-4000€. When driving an EV for 20+ years you’ll very likely have to replace the battery, probably twice (easily 10.000€ with current batteries every time you need a new one).
Another point: Resell value. Due to battery degradation and especially very quick technological advancements EVs tend to lose their value quicker than fuel powered vehicles.
I really want to buy an EV but it just doesn’t make sense yet. Give me an EV that’s not wasting any money on fancy screens, excessively good speakers, … with like 300 km of effective uphill range for a reasonable price and I’m in.
Puts slow charging at 1/4 the price of gasoline. That’s substantial.
Other searching says average of 18k km per year in Europe. With 6 l/ 100 km average age 1.76€/ l, gasoline costs €1,901 per year. Vs €475 for electricity. Saving €1,426 a year (1,527 US) Do that for 10 years and that’s €14,260 saved ($15, 270 US). I can only expect that savings will increase as gas prices go up.
As for maintenance anything with a timing belt is going to have a massive maintenance cost. There’s just no comparison in the design of these things. Electric motors have such a simple design. ICE cars have oil changes, transmission oil changes, coolant changes, spark plugs, starters, 12 v battery, accessory belt, timing belt, alternator. Yes EV’s have a 12v battery and coolant but these are not taxed nearly as much as ice cars.
EV motors are so simple they’ll handily outlast ice engines. And no transmission either. Boy if you’ve ever had transmission problems you’d never want another, EVs don’t have that. Tesla used to be on about a million mile drivetrain warranty because it really should be feasible. Ice cars can’t ever get that (on average).
Batteries yeah we’ll see how well new ones last. For a million miles you’ll go through a few batteries, which get better each time.
18.000 is heavily influenced by all the people driving >100.000 km per year, unless that’s the median, not the average. I’m far below 10.000 and still waiting for it to be worth it for me. I’ll calculate with 10.000 for now.
Modern ICE cars need far less than 6l. A modern VW Golf for example only needs 4-5 l per 100 km (4.5 avg, and yes it actually is that low, I’ve been driving a modern VW Golf at the military a few times and have tracked my average fuel consumption there).
Gas currently fluctuates from 1.525 to 1.599 in my area, so I’m always only filling the car on Monday mornings when it’s 1.525.
10 000 * 1.525 * 4.5/100 = 686.25€ per year.
Even if there’s a major crisis like when the war in Ukraine started and the price goes up to 2€ per liter for some time and I’m at 1.8€ average for the year (I have never had such a high average so this is really stretching it), we get 10 000 * 1.8 * 4.5/100 = 810€ per year. Worst case, never happened before scenario.
Economic modern EV need ~16 kWh per 100 km. The average price per kWh at home is 0.2€ in my area.
10 000 * 0.2 * 20/100 = 400€ per year.
= 286.25€ (410€ worst case) per year saved (purely for moving the car), assuming I always charge at home. If I do longer trips on holidays and have to charge somewhere else that gap gets lower.
Even when adding less taxes, less repairs (but modern engines really don’t need much repairing, even though they’re much more complex than electric motors and wasting more energy) it will still will take a long time to break equal (probably never because I need a new battery before breaking equal).
If I have an average of 10k km per year that’s 16.200€ for 200.000 km over 20 years with an ICE car at 1.8€/l (higher average than I’ve ever experienced) or 6.400€ for the same with an electric car at 0.2€/kWh (which is below my average of the last two years). Ignoring inflation for simplicity, just assume my salary goes up with inflation so percentually it stays the same.
If I need a new battery (10.000€, actually more but I’ll just say 10.000 for now since they’ll likely go down at some point) every 10 years then I’m just about to break equal after 20 years, right before going negative again by buying another battery.
You have an incredibly adversarial tone with that “actual numbers” as if mine aren’t, so I’m not going to continue.
But I will point out I’m using averages and you are cherry picking low mileage per year, low fuel consumption, and low gas prices. And I’m guessing funny electric numbers to change 1/4 the cost of gas to nearly 2/3 the cost. And funny enough you are combining low mileage per year with moderately-high battery replacement rate. You are picking and choosing.
I meant actual numbers in regards to my last comment (the one you previously replied to) since I was just basing that one on calculations I did like a year ago. So now I made another comment where I used actual numbers instead of just roughly writing my conclusion from a year ago. It was not directed at your comment, sorry for the misunderstanding.
And I’m using low mileage per year because as I stated in the comment before this is about my situation, about if an EV is practical for me or if I’m forced to wait until they’re getting cheaper. Currently I’m at around 5000 km per year, I use public transport a lot (and am not expecting that to change anytime soon).
Also the price per kWh is the average price per kWh in my area and is roughly the average I’m getting (I think I have 0.17€ rn since it’s cheaper in summer but I also had 0.42€ already in winter so 0.2€ average really isn’t high).
Battery replacement rate is based on this (first search result for ev battery degradation):
At the average degradation rate of 2.3% per year, an EV battery would take 15 years to decline to 70% maximum charge. However, as we expect EV battery life to decline non-linearly, there would likely be a more significant drop-off as the battery ages.
This means the battery is at 80% capacity after 10 years, which already drops the range below 300 km in winter for not insanely expensive EV. I do not have first hand experience on how many years a battery lasts, but even if it lasts 20 years (63% with this formula, although they do state that it’s expected to decline quicker after longer usage, and current EVs wouldn’t get my minimum 300 km winter range anymore) I’m still at break even point when buying a new battery after those 20 years.
That’s why I’m holding off for now and just continue driving my reliable 25 year old Skoda, hoping for EV to become cheaper soon (all it takes is a new battery technology… the battery is why EVs are so expensive rn).
And your source is calculating with prices from 2019. Before COVID, before the Russo-Ukrainian war. I’m using numbers from this year.
That’s really the only thing preventing mass adaptation, but as long as they’re so expensive (which they likely will be until we see a new battery technology) they simply aren’t a viable choice for many people.
Many of the people who are willing to spend a fortune on a vehicle already get an EV in the last few years (which they still are using rn), resulting in declining sales. It is time to cater to a broader market: more budget conscious people!
I just don’t trust the used market or resale value of these things. I bought a new ICE vehicle and don’t plan on considering EV or electric for at least another decade
I always wonder who is buying brand new vehicles. Why buy new instead of a car from one year ago?
Because I really want it in grey!!
But like, so many used cars are grey? I always heard that people buy white, black, and grey because they sell better later on.
Grey was meant as a variable there. People buying new cars are typically either heavy on disposable income and/or have placed high value on arbitrary criteria that most of us would not consider worth the very high price difference between New and used cars.
Ah, so any specific color. Yeah, that makes more sense.
Something I’ve heard from people in my life is that once you have a nicer car with all the creature comforts, it is really hard to go back. Strong air conditioning, extra comfy seats, quiet driving or the right kind of loud driving are all hard to give up.
That’s true but you can get all of that in a used car. There is a decent <20k mile used market and the same car new vs. One with 10miles on it in mint condition is thousands of dollars. The same people that will spend a day shuffling around money to try to game a 0.1% interest increase will throw piles of extra money for that new car though
Depends on the cost of new vs used…extra warranty on new, and cheaper monthly rates on new compared to used.
Financially, depending on the cars being compared it can actually be cheaper in the long run to buy new instead of used.
Every comparison I’ve ever seen puts the new car as far, far more expensive than used.
Do two cars have to be different models and different years? Can it work out to compare the same trim level of the same car, and have the new one cost less overall than the used one?
I’ve never figured for any warranty in my car buying, so I’m playing a whole different ballgame here. I just go by advertised price, average gas milage, and how expensive is it when it breaks?
EVs are more expensive up front, then cost less as electricity is cheaper than gas. And cheaper maintenance and longer lifespan.
Vimes Boots Theory.
Yes, but you have to drive a lot to make up for the price. Dropping from 10€ per 100 km to 5€ per 100 km and slightly less maintenance cost (modern Diesel motors - and by modern I mean the last few decades, given that the motor has been treated well - are pretty carefree already) takes a long time to pay off. If you drive 10.000 km per year that’ll save you 500€ per year + minor maintenance savings, but you pay 10.000+ € more when buying the car. For electric motorcycles it’s even less notable since they need less fuel.
Lifespan also is difficult to evaluate. I’m currently using a 25 year old Skoda Octavia and it’s still causing no problems and I still could resell it for 3000-4000€. When driving an EV for 20+ years you’ll very likely have to replace the battery, probably twice (easily 10.000€ with current batteries every time you need a new one).
Another point: Resell value. Due to battery degradation and especially very quick technological advancements EVs tend to lose their value quicker than fuel powered vehicles.
I really want to buy an EV but it just doesn’t make sense yet. Give me an EV that’s not wasting any money on fancy screens, excessively good speakers, … with like 300 km of effective uphill range for a reasonable price and I’m in.
Some quick math from this https://www.realclearscience.com/articles/2022/09/22/how_expensive_is_it_to_charge_an_ev_in_europe_and_is_it_really_cheaper_than_gas_854618.html#!
Puts slow charging at 1/4 the price of gasoline. That’s substantial.
Other searching says average of 18k km per year in Europe. With 6 l/ 100 km average age 1.76€/ l, gasoline costs €1,901 per year. Vs €475 for electricity. Saving €1,426 a year (1,527 US) Do that for 10 years and that’s €14,260 saved ($15, 270 US). I can only expect that savings will increase as gas prices go up.
As for maintenance anything with a timing belt is going to have a massive maintenance cost. There’s just no comparison in the design of these things. Electric motors have such a simple design. ICE cars have oil changes, transmission oil changes, coolant changes, spark plugs, starters, 12 v battery, accessory belt, timing belt, alternator. Yes EV’s have a 12v battery and coolant but these are not taxed nearly as much as ice cars.
EV motors are so simple they’ll handily outlast ice engines. And no transmission either. Boy if you’ve ever had transmission problems you’d never want another, EVs don’t have that. Tesla used to be on about a million mile drivetrain warranty because it really should be feasible. Ice cars can’t ever get that (on average).
Batteries yeah we’ll see how well new ones last. For a million miles you’ll go through a few batteries, which get better each time.
Alright, time to do actual numbers.
18.000 is heavily influenced by all the people driving >100.000 km per year, unless that’s the median, not the average. I’m far below 10.000 and still waiting for it to be worth it for me. I’ll calculate with 10.000 for now.
Modern ICE cars need far less than 6l. A modern VW Golf for example only needs 4-5 l per 100 km (4.5 avg, and yes it actually is that low, I’ve been driving a modern VW Golf at the military a few times and have tracked my average fuel consumption there).
Gas currently fluctuates from 1.525 to 1.599 in my area, so I’m always only filling the car on Monday mornings when it’s 1.525.
10 000 * 1.525 * 4.5/100 = 686.25€ per year.
Even if there’s a major crisis like when the war in Ukraine started and the price goes up to 2€ per liter for some time and I’m at 1.8€ average for the year (I have never had such a high average so this is really stretching it), we get 10 000 * 1.8 * 4.5/100 = 810€ per year. Worst case, never happened before scenario.
Economic modern EV need ~16 kWh per 100 km. The average price per kWh at home is 0.2€ in my area.
10 000 * 0.2 * 20/100 = 400€ per year.
= 286.25€ (410€ worst case) per year saved (purely for moving the car), assuming I always charge at home. If I do longer trips on holidays and have to charge somewhere else that gap gets lower.
Even when adding less taxes, less repairs (but modern engines really don’t need much repairing, even though they’re much more complex than electric motors and wasting more energy) it will still will take a long time to break equal (probably never because I need a new battery before breaking equal).
If I have an average of 10k km per year that’s 16.200€ for 200.000 km over 20 years with an ICE car at 1.8€/l (higher average than I’ve ever experienced) or 6.400€ for the same with an electric car at 0.2€/kWh (which is below my average of the last two years). Ignoring inflation for simplicity, just assume my salary goes up with inflation so percentually it stays the same.
If I need a new battery (10.000€, actually more but I’ll just say 10.000 for now since they’ll likely go down at some point) every 10 years then I’m just about to break equal after 20 years, right before going negative again by buying another battery.
You have an incredibly adversarial tone with that “actual numbers” as if mine aren’t, so I’m not going to continue.
But I will point out I’m using averages and you are cherry picking low mileage per year, low fuel consumption, and low gas prices. And I’m guessing funny electric numbers to change 1/4 the cost of gas to nearly 2/3 the cost. And funny enough you are combining low mileage per year with moderately-high battery replacement rate. You are picking and choosing.
I meant actual numbers in regards to my last comment (the one you previously replied to) since I was just basing that one on calculations I did like a year ago. So now I made another comment where I used actual numbers instead of just roughly writing my conclusion from a year ago. It was not directed at your comment, sorry for the misunderstanding.
And I’m using low mileage per year because as I stated in the comment before this is about my situation, about if an EV is practical for me or if I’m forced to wait until they’re getting cheaper. Currently I’m at around 5000 km per year, I use public transport a lot (and am not expecting that to change anytime soon).
Also the price per kWh is the average price per kWh in my area and is roughly the average I’m getting (I think I have 0.17€ rn since it’s cheaper in summer but I also had 0.42€ already in winter so 0.2€ average really isn’t high).
Battery replacement rate is based on this (first search result for ev battery degradation):
This means the battery is at 80% capacity after 10 years, which already drops the range below 300 km in winter for not insanely expensive EV. I do not have first hand experience on how many years a battery lasts, but even if it lasts 20 years (63% with this formula, although they do state that it’s expected to decline quicker after longer usage, and current EVs wouldn’t get my minimum 300 km winter range anymore) I’m still at break even point when buying a new battery after those 20 years.
That’s why I’m holding off for now and just continue driving my reliable 25 year old Skoda, hoping for EV to become cheaper soon (all it takes is a new battery technology… the battery is why EVs are so expensive rn).
And your source is calculating with prices from 2019. Before COVID, before the Russo-Ukrainian war. I’m using numbers from this year.