Legislation that Gov. JB Pritzker signed into law this month bans physical punishment in private schools while reiterating a prohibition on the practice in public schools implemented 30 years ago.
Fucking hell, how is this still legal in 45 other states???
We have a long way to go
Right? I’m often shocked by what is still legal, like the number of states that allow an adult to marry a child.
It’s frustrating how long it takes the legal system to catch up. I experienced corporal punishment in public school. It’s a barbaric and weird practice.
Barbaric, weird, and ineffective. It doesn’t actually address what is causing the behavioral issue. It only punishes the kid for reacting normally to whatever stimuli they are experiencing. It’s especially frustrating when the fix would have been something simple like listening to the kid’s concerns or trying to have a conversation with them to address the root problem.
Gotta make sure the kids stay in line so you can get them to work. Don’t forget how many child labor laws have been loosened or removed by conservative states
TIL… what the fuck. This shit has been illegal Canada wide for generations now, I honestly thought this article was from the past…
Wait…is the modern day US from the past? Was there some sort of time loop?
Wait till you find out how often the state executes harmless restrained prisoners in modern day US.
Barely ever?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_executed_in_the_United_States_in_2023
24 last year is still too many but it’s not like this happens a lot
How many is a lot to you?? Like are you sure this isn’t copium??
How many is a lot to you??
More than 24 a year in a country with a population of 300 million
Like are you sure this isn’t copium??
Idk what that is. If you’re implying I think that 24 is ok, I don’t. 1 is too many. It can be too many and a small number at the same time.
Oh… I really thought that meanwhile that number was lower… Like significantly lower, like 2 to 3 people.
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Nope, it’s still legal to spank children in Canada. As long as the force used does not exceed what is considered reasonable under the circumstances. Linked article
Personal anecdote: when I was in 3rd grade in the early 2000s, there was a student in class that had major behavioural issues and would act out all the time. I had witnessed an incident in class which the student was acting out in front of the teacher, which eventually escalated to the point where he started throwing his desk around and threw his chair at her. After the teacher returned to class a few days later, she had disclosed to the whole class that she had a signed permission form by the student’s parents authorizing her to use force on the student.
It would explain alot
I was unaware it was still legal until this.
I’m not a violent person. I’ve never been in a fight, let alone in jail for assault. If some school official did that shit to my daughter, it would be my first time for both.
Like everything else in this country.
The Cruelty is the Point
Cuz of little shits? You know how they say Karens are Karens cuz they never had consequences?
It is entirely possible to give children consequences without hitting them, you lack imagination if the only way you can envision giving a child consequences is to hit them.
There’s a difference between fear and respect. A child should NEVER fear the adult providing their care.
I would actually wager decent money that many of those little shits have been smacked around quite a lot. They learn to react how they were taught by demonstration. If mistakes are met with violence and aggression, then they learn to do the same to others.
I know a teacher who (unofficially) specialises in kids like those. They are hell on a new teacher. However, once they realise that they are not met with aggression, the veneer cracks. The young scared child realises that there is an adult they both cares and shouldn’t be feared. Very soon, just the idea that they might disappoint her is a far better motivator than any punishment could be.
Christian (conservative) values do not differentiate between fear and respect. Preachers harp on their equivalence at the pulpit on a regular basis. They are taught by their respected authority figures that to fear is to respect, and they reinforce those values in their children. It’s no wonder that authority figures in communities that hold these values are some of the most abusive.
They worship a being that kills everyone who doesn’t do what he tells them to and tortures people forever for not believing in him when he is actively hiding from them. The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree in that religion.
Yes! This is the exact approach a good teacher takes with students who struggle with behavioral norms. There is a reason they are doing what they’re doing. They are reacting to adults the way they have been trained to react by other, shittier adults.
Once they trust you as a person who actually cares, they seem to become a whole new person. They are no longer scared to be vulnerable in front of you. It’s a sacred level of respect that teachers and/or mentor adults need to take very seriously.
I used to be the person who specializes in working with students who struggle with behavioral problems, and I can 100% assure you that exposure to violence from or among adults they are around is what led them to my classrom.
Why do you think, “if you do something I disapprove of, I will cause you pain,” is a good lesson to teach a child? When a child does that to another child, it’s called bullying.
Can you imagine being unable to communicate with a child without having the option of hitting them?
What’s wrong with physical punishment? My dad hit me and I turned out fine after just a decade of therapy.
Careful now, I got in trouble yesterday for not putting a
/son my sarcasm.The
after just a decade of therapy.
does wonders.
Being sarcastic about damn near everything works for me.
This is the way.
Not gonna lie, they had us in the first half.
The data available shows hitting kids does absolutely nothing to increase desired behaviors and in many cases is linked to increase in unwanted behaviors.
What do you mean hitting children teaches them that hitting is acceptable?
Next they will tell us that beating our wives for dinner being late is unacceptable!
Yeah I can 100% confirm this. My parents beat me when I was a kid.
I’ve learned to lie better. It’s not something I’m proud of.
Also explains a lot about American culture being what it is.
We all learned to convincingly lie our way out of “the wooden spoon”
My mom wasn’t strong enough to beat me and I quickly got bigger than my step-dad, but the psychological and mental abuse was there. And now she questions why it don’t let her hang out with my son alone and will abruptly leave with him when I get even a whiff of it.
Edit: forgot my point, but yes, I too became a master liar.
To be fair, your case applies to any sort of punishment.
- I’m punished if I do something wrong.
- If they don’t find out, I don’t get punished.
Conclusion: need to hide doing something wrong better.
Doing it out of fear makes it a survival response. Unlike getting grounded and talking about what was wrong.
What kind of beating are you supposed to give children for them to actually fear for their lives? I understand that there are sickos like that, but it’s not that common. I’ve been belted my whole childhood, but I never had any survival response, cause I knew that my parents love me. During the whole thing I was much more worried about getting my PS2 taken away.
A child depends on their parent for every aspect of their survival. To have a parent turn on them in any respect is potentially a life-altering experience, and not in the way the parent intends. We have mountains and mountains of research that you can easily take advantage of. Two people can have the same experience; one receives permanent trauma, and the other just has a bad day. You were fortunate, but it is quite likely you are suffering affects (eg in relationships, self image, spiritual disposition) you are not presently able to acknowledge.
Lemmy back to making assumptions about comments. Not in the least indicated by the amount of downvotes to my original comment. Also Lemming really don’t like hearing truths that don’t vibe with them.
But to address your comment, I suppose you didn’t say anything wrong, but it assumes that I don’t know about adverse effects of corporal punishment and somehow approve of it.
I come from culture where corporal punishment is the default. 90-95% of boys (not so sure about girls, should be much less) experienced it, at least in the years of my childhood (it luckily seems to be going down, from my personal experience). But this doesn’t mean that 95% of boys get beaten to pulp with a bludgeon. Most of the punishment is a slap on the back of the neck or something equivalent. Do I approve of it? No. But unlike some, I’m also willing to acknowledge that it’s by far not the worst thing a parent can do, and the amount of potential trauma is likely negligible. And most children don’t see these as “parents turning on them” or “life threatening experience”. (Source: was a child who went to many different schools with children of various socioeconomic status)
I wasn’t saying I was fortunate, I’m pretty sure I have enough traumatic experiences, including some instances that I remember to this day. And just because all of what I said above is true, you don’t have to assume that my comments are an emphatic endorsement for child-beating, or beating any living creature, for that matter.
Parents who dont respect the bodily integrity of their children are already on the path to more serious corporeal punishment, and that is something that does happen, even if you didn’t see it. Furthermore, it perpetuates the issue, since the children (like you!) learnt that it is a valid parenting tool, and among those there are again future parents who take it further than a small slap, and so on and so on… simply say no to corporeal punishment.
and by the way, it does not take grievous bodily harm to traumatize children. verbal abuse takes it’s toll too, creating deep-seated psychological issues in many children.
The problem is that during childhood, the parents are literally the only lifeline for a child. Every experience that betrays the trust that children HAVE to have towards their parents has potential for trauma. A few isolated incidences might not do damage, but it’s like playing roulette: the more often you play, the higher the chance your number comes up, creating lifelong consequences like anxiety/fear/depression (or when happening in the first few years of your life, personality disorders like my AVPD), inability to have a stable relationship, or bonding issues with your future children.
Don’t hit your children. Don’t yell at your children either. Do not make excuses for people who do this.
Parents that beat their kids don’t really love them. They are releasing their anger on their kids. My mom left bruises and welts from the belt until I pushed her into a wall. I have also never hit my kid now that I have one. Because I take the time to chill myself before punishment.
Not all corporal punishment by parents is “beating”. I was belted, but it wasn’t done out of anger (maybe only sometimes). It was just a misguided method of disciplining, done “for my benefit”.
I have never seen, heard, or talked to anyone that spanked their kid after waiting for 20min. It’s always been in the heat of the moment. It’s a power exchange. An outdated punishment just like making kids eat castor oil, being denied food, or poisoning their kids by making them put soap in their mouth.
Hitting your kids just teaches them to self harm before problem solving
In schools? How is this even still an open question? I thought the debate had at least moved on to whether parents should be allowed to hurt their children, even in the US.
It was banned in public schools 30 years ago, this extends the ban to private schools
Not in every state.
Wait, it was allowed up until now?
Laws for physically harming children are super messed up. Children are legally nearly a slave class in this country. Their parents can 100% hit them (“within reason”) and it’s not child abuse. If a child retaliates at all, the child can actually have charges pressed against them by the parent.
I have heard numerous numerous stories of this exact situation: parent starts beating kid to discipline. it gets out of hand/kid won’t tolerate any more, so they call 911. Police show up, tell kid not only are they not arresting parent, but it is parent’s right to hit kid and discipline as they see fit (within the law). But if parent wants they can see about charges to kid if kid hit them or destroyed property.
This is also very similar as to what happens when women call for domestic violence - the police threaten to arrest the victim. Really really often. It’s almost like police are domestic abusers themselves.
Patriarchal violence…
But true, the US is one of the few countries that didn’t sign the children’s rights convention
Sources please. Never heard this. Always heard the cops do little, sometimes heard the system works. Have not heard cops tell kids they can be hit. (Edit: not doubting, just more in a wtf state.)
I mean, these are personal stories people have told me. That’s my source. I’ve spoken with thousands of people about their childhood trauma from tons of different backgrounds, including foster children.
Look at child abuse laws in your state. How are they defined? Anything short of that is completely allowed as discipline. If you give me your state (or name an example state if that’s too personal), I’ll post the laws.
If you’d like a resource to verify that, either call your local CPS office or non-emergency police. They are public servants. Ask them. They will tell you. It’s completely true. You can even put locks on your fridge and partially starve your kid as long as it doesn’t threaten their lives.
There’s still a handful of red states with it on the books as well. Yes, it’s everyone you think it is.
Technically in AZ you can rap the knuckles of a student with a ruler. You’ll still get fired for hitting a kid but I am pretty sure you are safe from a lawsuit.
Catholic schools still hit kids, iirc. Fairly certain it’s legal in private schools. (In AZ)
Heres my argument against hitting kids. Mississippi loves it, cant get enough of it. Every ailment of society is caused by kids not getting hit enough, and they wear their past of childhood violence as their biggest badge of honor. Hitting kids is how you get Mississippians.
"Mississippi ranks 39th in violent crime among all states and has the third-lowest violent crime rate in the South. "
Is it … working?
Violent crime in rural areas is dramatically underreported because cops don’t even take reports for domestic violence unless it requires an ambulance ride.
Mississippi is the poorest state in the US, with a poverty rate of 18.7%, followed by Louisiana as the second poorest state, with a poverty rate of 17.8%, and New Mexico, as the third poorest state in the US, at a poverty rate of 16.8%.
I don’t know, is it?
Or they ain’t so gud at countin’.
So I started actually looking up numbers and they indeed look good from certain sources, but I’m still giving them the side eye. For instance, the CDC shows Mississippi as having the #1 murder rate among the states in 2022.
Is the point of hitting children to reduce violent crime? I have a feeling there are better ways. Maybe we should work on getting rid of microplastics.
The thumbnail made me think this was about hitting children with busses, glad to see that’s already illegal
hitting children with busses, glad to see that’s already illegal
…for now.
I thought it was going to be a !fuck_cars@lemmy.ml post, until I reached the corporeal punishment part.
This is overreacting. I was beat as a child and I only need minimal therapy now.
Good job. Keep making conservatives actively confront their weird, inhumane, hateful bullshit on its face.
The gop is the party of hungry, beaten kids, sitting in understaffed schools, without schoolbooks, and distracted by construction noise from the publicly funded ten commandments statue going up near the school entrance between the active shooter drills. They sit there, nodding off and tired from working a double at the Tyson chichen slaughterhouse the night before.
And never forget, matt gaetz is sitting in the parking lot waiting to offer your kids a ride after school…
“would you like a ride to another state where it’s legal for me to do you?”
I was threatened with spanking once in the 9th grade.
I told the principal that it would take more than him to do it. He called my dad. Dad laughed in his face and told him to try me on. Then hung up.
I ended up with a week of ISS.
INB4: I know this sounds like a greentext. I’ve been telling this story for 20 fkin years.
Ahhh ISS. The truest of punishments. We had to help the janitors as part of ISS. Good luck catching up on missed schoolwork at home despite being in school all day, all while watching your friends have fun while you empty the next trash can.
What is ISS?
In School Suspension
We had “optional” corporal punishment.
You could choose swats with a paddle, or writing sentences over and over.
Most people took swats, but I just picked sentences and never did them. They’d double the amount a couple times and eventually stop asking for them.
But absolutely zero boys gave a shit about taking swats, it was no deterrent what so ever. Even knowing that there was an easy way out of the alternative, they’d just take swats and immediately forget it happened.
If anything it made behavior worse, because they could do whatever and then have a few seconds of discomfort later if and only if they were caught doing the bad thing.
But absolutely zero boys gave a shit about taking swats
Great time to remind everyone that the adult men who administer corporal punishment in schools do in fact take great pleasure in spanking teenage girls, and that girls opt-out of it more than boys because they know it will border on sexual assault.
Girls have a higher pain tolerance than boys. They just know the horrific implications of being alone in a room with an older man who has authority and permission to use violence.
Oh yeah, I think girls didn’t even have the option.
I dont know if the girls gym teacher just wouldn’t do it, or if none of them picked it, but none of them got swats.
But almost every gym class there was a line of boys waiting.
spanking teenage girls
This is a thing that happens?
Just ask current Auburn University head football coach Hugh Freeze.
Well that was disgusting.
It’s okay. He said he loves Jesus. We’re all fine!!!
Im sure you have sources right? Would you share them so we can all spread the word?
What do you need a source on? I am not that poster but I am a professional dominatrix and I will vouch that women, including transwomen, tend to have much higher pain tolerance than men. This is pretty well known in BDSM. Note that doesn’t mean women don’t feel the pain - they definitely do. They can just take a lot more pain and for a lot longer time than most men.
As to the other part - duh. It’s pretty obvious a teacher would use any excuse at physical touch as an opportunity to assault a student if he was so inclined. That’s how most predators operate, who get away with it - in the realm of plausible deniability. Predators are always looking for that wiggle room that gives them space to assault while simultaneously denying it. It’s why they prey on children in the first place.
Girls have a higher pain tolerance than boys.
Sounds like the sort of thing a doctor says while explaining himself at an inquisition.
I’m seeing conflicting research on a cursory look.
At my school, the principal wasn’t allowed to paddle girls. Only boys.
I don’t know who made that rule but I can imagine why.
I had heard from a guy from singapore that many young men had the idea around the canning that they could do that standing on their head kind of thing.
I don’t think that guy could take a Singapore caning and remain conscious, much less standing.
he talked like you could get one or two so it was like a macho thing. Oh you had 3, yeah I had 5 the other week no problem. I mean he was from singapore but may have been full of it I suppose but he did not come off that way and I knew him for a few years as he was in an academic program related to the lab I worked in.
Im sure you have sources right? Would you share them so we can all spread the word?
We’ll. Unless you want me to call up my middle school gym teacher I dont really know what you want me to do here champ…
But part of that is because you replied to a long comment asking for a source without mentioning what you were talking about.
Even then, looking at my entire comment I have absolutely zero idea what the fuck you’re asking for here.
Ah dammit. I replied to the wrong comment, sorry.
I was looking for the one that says men mostly love hitting girls for sexual reasons and girls have a much higher pain tolerance. Or something to that tune.
Showing a picture of buses made me think they meant hitting them with vehicles lmao
same lol
Otto is way too stoned to get road rage
Here’s a crazy idea. Every time you wanna spank a kid, don’t. Spank that kid’s parents instead.
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But but but . . . hitting solves problems!
Just ask the guy who invented it . . . Hitler.
(I’ll show myself out)
Earlier that day, the child allegedly spit at a teacher. Now, he was in handcuffs and a police officer was saying he could end up in jail.
Well…that’s assault…what would you like the teacher to do in that situation?
Once upon a time, back in the dark ages when I was in school, kids like that were sent to the principal’s office, at which point they might be given detention, suspension, or even expulsion.
Hell when I was a kid having meltdowns it usually took me chucking a chair for the police to be called. Me spitting while only partially melting down was usually seen as a throw him at the principal problem.
We can’t expel children any more. And I’m betting this was the last straw after several detentions.
What would you like the teacher to do then?
Why can’t “we” expel children anymore? You can here in Indiana.
I guess you can expell children in my state, but the paperwork and procedure makes it almost impossible. The teacher would have to go through the equivalent of a small trial…and that’s only if it’s a normal kid. If a parent says ADHD the kid can’t be expelled.
It’s fucking weird to arrest kids, I get that. But as someone with a kid in school, I’ve seen how batshit crazy school has gotten.
If I had spit on a teacher growing up, I’d immediately have been expelled and thrown in juvie. Welcome to alternative education.
I believe the teachers. They’re under paid and dealing with the craziest fucked up post COVID generation in history.
If I had spit on a teacher growing up, I’d immediately have been expelled and thrown in juvie.
Where on Earth did you grow up that spitting on a teacher would have ended with you being thrown in juvenile detention? Can you provide any evidence of this?
Rural America.
Wipe it off, tell the child in no uncertain terms that this is never acceptable, and if it continues being confrontational to that degree, send it to the principal’s office to get detention.
And after that doesn’t work several times?
You’re talking as if there weren’t pedagogic professionals who have solved this problem. If a child is that unwilling to conform even slightly, the child either has special needs and doesn’t belong there, or, more likely, there’s shit going down at the child’s home and CPS need to get involved.
I’m thoroughly baffled that you think there’s any kind of argument to be made for corporeal punishment. The scientific world has solved and moved on a century ago. The backwater sticklers who still don’t get it are harmful Luddites, not people with opinions to take seriously.
I’m absolutely not for corporeal punishment. I am ok with a kid being arrested.for assault.
Take it or leave it, but there are some children that just shouldn’t be in the public school system for whatever reason.
I absolutely am for better mental health resources and special needs programs. Being tolerant of neurodivergent children is great, I’m all for it, until they are violent or make teaching the other kids impossible.
Then…I don’t know…arresting the kid seems reasonable if they been repeatedly violent and disruptive.
Teachers have their hands tied when dealing with violent children. I don’t know what the answer is.
Not to arrest children.
