cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ml/post/22940159
Bernie Sanders caused a stir last week, when the independent senator from Vermont and two-time contender for the Democratic presidential nomination sent a post-election email to his progressive supporters across the country. In it, he argued that the Democrats suffered politically in 2024 at least in part because they ran a campaign that focused on “protecting the status quo and tinkering around the edges.”
In contrast, said Sanders, “Trump and the Republicans campaigned on change and on smashing the existing order.” Yes, he explained, “the ‘change’ that Republicans will bring about will make a bad situation worse, and a society of gross inequality even more unequal, more unjust and more bigoted.”
Despite that the reality of the threat they posed, Trump and the Republicans still won a narrow popular-vote victory for the presidency, along with control of the US House. That result has inspired an intense debate over the future direction not just of the Democratic Party but of the country. And the senator from Vermont is in the thick of it.
In his email, Sanders, a member of the Senate Democratic Caucus who campaigned in states across the country this fall for Vice President Kamala Harris and the Democratic ticket, asked a blunt question: “Will the Democratic leadership learn the lessons of their defeat and create a party that stands with the working class and is prepared to take on the enormously powerful special interests that dominate our economy, our media and our political life?”
His answer: “Highly unlikely. They are much too wedded to the billionaires and corporate interests that fund their campaigns.”
Not every single person who disagrees with you is a paid shill. I voted for kamala and did so happily, and I’m very worried about the democratic party’s ability to change in the way they need to also. At some point, we do need to upend the 2 party system, it has yielded only bad things.
I don’t know the right way to do that. I don’t know how we can do that with the least possible compromise, giving conservatives an advantage by splitting the progressive vote while using a voting system that favors two entrenched parties over outside candidates. AND ALSO the two party system is a problem this country desperately needs to solve.
The two parties are absolutely not the same, but that doesn’t mean the democratic party is doing a great job of representing people’s actual interests, it just means they aren’t literal fascists. I dunno about you, but I’d really hope my political representation can be better than “literal fascists, or, people who kinda sorta sometimes care about issues that represent you, except all the times when they don’t”
The only party that has a chance of beating the republicans is the Democratic Party. There is no other party.
As long as we are sowing apathy towards the Democratic Party we won’t have a chance of beating the fascist republicans that show up to vote no matter what.
So you can call it disagreeing or call it being worried or call it constructive criticism. It doesn’t matter what you call it as long as it sows apathy it will increase the fascist republicans chances of winning.
People like OP are reposting the same posts and commenting in each one systematically with comments to sow apathy. It has been obvious to more than just me for a while now.
The election is over. Democrats failed spectacularly. Now is the time for criticism and accountability. If not now, when? We’re all just supposed to pretend that Harris ran a great campaign? Are you familiar with the concept of learning from failure? I was beating this drum myself before the election—you know, when it actually made sense. Now it just smacks of sticking your fingers in your ears.
Democrats lost because fewer Democratic voters showed up this year. That is a sign of apathy. If we spend the next 4 years sowing more apathy then it won’t matter what we are saying the months leading up to the election because everyone will already be apathetic.
To pretend democrats failed spectacularly is to ignore the billionaires doing things like buying votes to win or Russian bots sowing apathy to Democratic voters to convince them to not vote or vote 3rd party.
I see you’re federated with startrek.website. Ever heard the saying “you can do everything right and still lose”.
Apathy caused Democratic voters to stay home. Continuing to sow more apathy will guarantee we lose the next one, if there is a next one.
Sure there were Russian bots. Of course there was billionaire fuckery. That’s been the case every cycle for decades. Do you honestly believe that Democrats lost exclusively because of these things? And furthermore, that nobody should critique their performance or policies, because that constitutes sowing apathy? Weeks after the fucking election? That’s the dumbest fucking thing I ever heard.
Harris lost the popular vote by 1.6%. Trump gained more votes than he got in 2020. It was a close race but Trump got all the most important swing states with the most electoral votes. The scales were not tipped very far in Trumps favor.
Saying we should waste our votes on 3rd parties or claiming democrats are the same as the republican fascists is not “critiquing performance or policies”. To even claim that is a bad faith argument.
Just shut up and never ever criticize the party that only ever moves to the right, or you want the fascists to win!
You will never understand that votes are earned, not demanded.
Democrats: work with Bernie Sanders
You: this is called moving to the right!
Bernie Sanders: Exists
You: This is working with Bernie Sanders!
Bernie Sanders: votes with the Democratic Party You: this is not called working with Bernie Sanders!
Sanders voting with the party is not the party working with Sanders.
I’m done talking to you. All you do is deliberately misrepresent my positions.
You confuse apathy with refusing to support a Republican in liberal clothing
Why is this repeated so much by accounts from lemmy.ml only?
Because we can see what many liberals can’t, that your party is full of right wing gatekeepers. That ran on a right wing platform
Interesting. I wonder why no one outside of lemmy.ml agrees.
.ML is so powerful it caused Harris to lose an election?
Apparently millions outside of .ML saw it too
Yes. There isn’t another party. Democratic voters didnt turn out, and lots of people feel that is a reflection of the Democratic party’s strategy, and it’s ability to connect with people and motivate them.
For those who see it that way, there are two options, the reform and improvement of the democratic party, or a replacement that can better motivate people by offering more significant change. And many folks in the camp that are frustrated, and feel the democratic party isn’t reflecting their interests, or doing enough to connect with amercians, also don’t feel like the democractic party can change.
People want to act on what they think will solve the problem. I understand you think their idea of a solution is counter-productive, the case I’m trying to make is that going around assuming everyone you don’t agree with is acting in bad faith in service of a secret agenda is AT LEAST as counter productive, if not substantially more so.
Theres an entirely legitimate good faith reason for someone to post this kind of thing- they think it will build momentum towards what they see as the solution to the problems they care about.
If we can’t even have productive conversations about what the problem is and why we think it should be solved a certain way, we’re fucking doomed. Democracy is fundamentally about collaborative governance, even in an unhealthy democracy like ours. These problems are fundamentally bigger than any of us can solve alone, and the solutions we pick, and how many people will throw themselves behind them, are BOTH materially improved by seeking to understand those you disagree with, rather than insinuating that they’re up to some plot to get a fascist elected, here on one of the most progressive platforms on the entire internet.
Your frustration is understandable. We’re all fucking angry and trying to find the best way to resolve what we see as the source of our anger.
OP is suggesting we throw away our votes on a 3rd party. That has always been a bad faith argument in a first past the polls system. It is statistically impossible to win that way which is why it is a bad faith argument.
I’m not claiming it’s bad faith as an emotional response. I’m pointing out that when someone suggests the option that guarantees failure, they are not acting in good faith.
Firstly saying it’s logical to push for a third party doesn’t actually mean “let’s just piss away our votes”
It can mean pushing for voting reform along with a new party. And the change has gotta start somewhere if you want it to happen, and if you think it has to happen then picking a place, even one that you feel is impossible, doesn’t make it a bad faith argument. Its not like there’s any easy route to overturning the two party system, so if that’s what you think has to happen, you don’t exactly have any options that will be a cakewalk.
And furthermore, I’m not aware of statistics that say that (though I wouldn’t be surprised) but you’re essentially saying that because your (I assume) informed opinion is that it can’t be done, anyone who suggests it must be suggesting it with an ulterior motive. You reached for malice as an explanation where, if you’re right, ignorance would be a much more suitable explanation. Its an issue I care about, and if we actually have data to suggest its impossible then I would be ignorant too
It’d be far more productive to say “I really don’t think that’s possible, here’s why: xyz. I think if you want to make that kind of change happen I think you’ll have to find a different approach”
Do you have research or data on the topic? Or are you being hyperbolic in order to make your point that you think it’s unrealistic? (Honest question, I think both would be fair, though if it’s just a personal perspective that its unrealistic I do think that even further weakens the argument that its bad faith on OP’s part)
[The most successful third-party candidacy came in 1912, when Theodore Roosevelt finished second and got around 27 percent of the popular vote. Of course, he was a former president of the United States who hadn’t been renominated by his party and formed his own party. In recent times, H. Ross Perot’s third-party candidacy in 1992 got 19 percent of the popular vote, the second most in US history—but he got zero electoral votes. With the electoral college system, it’s highly, highly unlikely a third-party candidate could win an election.
Polls put the two biggest parties, the Green Party and the Libertarian Party, at around one percent of the popular vote, whereas in 2016, they got around four to five percent of the vote.](https://www.bu.edu/articles/2024/is-voting-third-party-a-wasted-vote/)
[Third parties that have been established were either short lived or, like the Libertarian and Green Parties, have had little impact on federal and state elections other than bringing more attention to issues for voters or siphoning votes from major-party candidates, sometimes serving a spoiler role in elections.
However, as has been the case for prior third-party candidates, Kennedy’s initially higher levels of support eventually faded. Kennedy also struggled to gain ballot access in many states, with his efforts landing him on the ballot in 21 states, and 13 additional states pending before he suspended his campaign and endorsed Trump.](https://news.gallup.com/poll/651278/support-third-political-party-dips.aspx)
Thank you very much for taking the time to type out all of that information, I really appreciate it! I would very much like to see the two party system overturned, and understanding the issue better helps me consider which (probably crappy) route has the best chances.
I don’t think that saying someone wants a third relevant party means they’re intrinsically acting in bad faith. I absolutely understand seeing it as completely unrealistic. It probably is. I just also have a really hard time seeing this system yielding the kind of represtation this country needs, and that’s something I desperately want for this country.
In an economy, only two companies vying for control of a market is a duopoly, and it’s unlikely between the two of them that they’ll do a good job of serving consumers. There’s no meaningful competition driving parties to really offer compelling solutions to the public, because both parties have to option of just saying “well I’m not THAT guy over there, the one you hate”
I’d like to see the first past the post voting system replaced, but l worry neither party will ever offer the public the option to replace it if it threatens their control. Obviously republicans never will. But I also don’t really believe another party can win until it’s changed.
Its an intensely frustrating status quo. And I can’t help but look backwards desperately wish we could have had bernie instead of Hillary. :(
Thanks for having actual discourse and being genuine. I also would like ranked choice voting and a party that better represents Americans.
Unfortunately because of citizens united and the two party system and first past the poll voting we have to support the lesser of two evils to make progress.
And I realize that not everyone who suggests we ignore that reality is acting in bad faith. But it is definitely a strategy of bad faith actors and then repeated by those who don’t know any better.
Thank you for discussing with me too, I really appreciate it. I feel very strongly that because there are so few people here compared to mainstream platforms, we all have a much greater impact on the culture of this space. I want to be a part of it being as sincere and kind as possible.
We don’t completely agree, and that’s okay, I appreciate you sharing your perspective with me. I hope you have a lovely day my friend. If you celebrate it, happy Thanksgiving!
Arguably more successful is Abraham Lincoln. Though, it might be more accurate to say that the newly formed Republican party didn’t kill the Whig party; rather the Whig party killed itself due to not listening to their constituents (which seems pretty relevant to our current situation)
Yeah. You’re claiming it as a Pavlovian reflex to people disagreeing with Democrats’ failed strategy of moving to the right.
Throwing away your vote against fascism and thus allowing fascism to take power is not “disagreeing with democrats”.
This particular lecture just proved unsuccessful against the fascism you prefer to any move leftward.
I said:
But since you are pathologically incapable of admitting that moving to the right has failed as a strategy, you have to lie about my position instead.
Harris and Cheney: “we need to put aside our differences to stop Trump”
You: “Nooooo! This is called moving to the right!”
And they just shat the bed because they can’t resist moving to the right and ordering people to love it.
Democrats aren’t interested in beating Republicans. They’re only interested in beating progressives.
They didn’t lose because they weren’t progressive enough. They lost because Biden inherited a pandemic that caused inflation and weak economy that required increasing interest rates.
Oh, now the economy at the time of the election was weak. Last month it was roaring and everyone who noticed that they couldn’t afford groceries was a Russian shill.
Democrats supported genocide, ran anti-trans bigotry in their own ads, and reveled in getting the endorsement of Dick Cheney. They moved to the right and lost. Quit defending their shitty behavior.
Not sure what you are babbling about here. Republican ads during the election were all focused on the high inflation.
The US military supports Israel to prevent Iran from getting stronger in the region because Iran has teamed up with China, Russia and North Korea and are actively supply drones and other weapons to Russia for use in Ukraine.
Netanyahu is responsible for the genocide. He is the only one who can stop it.
Cheney had absolutely nothing to do with Harris losing. Absolutely nothing in the polls or anecdotal evidence supports that claim but it is heavily pushed as a taking point here on lemmy from lemmy.ml so that fact should speak to how disingenuous it is.
Don’t fucking gaslight me. Democrats ran on “the economy is great actually”.
Biden and the entire centrist wing of the party supported GENOCIDE for the sheer joy of it and no other reason.
He sure as fuck didn’t help. But since you and your entire wing of the party has always loved everything he ever stood for, you were happy for his endorsement. Senpai noticed you.
Democrats didn’t run on this. Biden simply pointed out that inflation was going down but there was more to do.
Bad faith actors tried to spin that into “bIdEn SaId GrOcErIeS aRe ChEaP oMgWtF”.
Such a blatant bad faith argument. If he really just wants to commit genocide then why specifically arm Israel. Aren’t there easier ways to commit genocide. You’re pretending that he is some Bond villain to ignore nuance and geopolitics.
What is my wing of the party? Anything you pretend to know about me is based on assumptions just like everything else you’ve said. Finding common ground and reaching across the aisle is how you get things done in a democracy with many different ideologies.
Democrats tried to pretend that nothing was wrong while people couldn’t afford to eat.
I see you’ve fantasized this out.
Democrats don’t reach left.